Grasping the Basics

Hi Guys,

So i have been sitting and watching in discord and others have mentioned this as well that a lot of the same topics are coming up again and again.

To address this i would appreciate feedback on area’s specifically in unity that you feel you are not grasping the concepts on.

One that comes up time and time again is Source Control and people not using it or using Github to share their code with other students should they need help.

A quick check of the forums will help you get set up if this is the case
How to set up SourceTree and use github to commit and push to an online repo

Null reference is another repeating topic and 9/10 times the student has forgotten to drag something in the inspector where it needs to be, Not always but its the most common mistake.

The reason to gather this is so we can pick up where people are going wrong with the basics not advances topic like delegates etc thats another story :slight_smile:

Hey Marc, I hope you are doing well.

To address this i would appreciate feedback on area’s specifically in unity that you feel you are not grasping the concepts on.

I think that could be a fairly tall order, if you consider what you are asking, e.g. you are asking people who are perhaps knew to coding/Unity, having perhaps never used it before, to explain what it is they don’t know :slight_smile:

that a lot of the same topics are coming up again and again

This is probably more due to how, as humans, we work. A lot of people, but not all, will invariably reach out fairly early on for help rather than perhaps looking through a section of the forum for posts regarding the same problem that they are experiencing, “Please help me now!” etc. You will, of course, get varying levels of this, some people will spend hours, perhaps days on a problem, maybe not wanting to lose face, before finally asking. A select few may even search for some answers themselves. It wouldn’t take a huge investment to include a lecture on “How to find answers to common questions”, on both the Udemy platform and here, possibly Discord too if the search functionality is any good.

One that comes up time and time again is Source Control

A reasonably advanced topic which isn’t, even still, really covered thoroughly in any of the courses by GameDev.tv yet, just a flavour really, to get people started. When you become more experienced you can see the benefit of approaching any new project with Source Control from the beginning, but I suspect there would be a large proportion of students, new to Unity/coding that would be easily overwhelmed by a more thorough run through at the very beginning, rather than getting into the more “fun” stuff and seeing instant results.

The reason to gather this is so we can pick up where people are going wrong with the basics

I did put a series of sql report together some time ago for use by the team, sadly they weren’t really used by anyone other than myself, but I had suggested at the time that using the data explorer functionality of the forum would enable areas of subject matter to be identified as potential learning hurdles. e.g. if a specific tag is getting a lot of posts, that may indicate that people are having a lot of problems in that area.

Null reference is another repeating topic and 9/10 times the student has forgotten to drag something in

Yet we know this has been the case since the first course and has it been significantly covered in the updated courses yet? I don’t recall it being mentioned (I could be wrong), e.g. after creating a reference between a GameObject and the exposed member of a class, it would be very easy to then explain/mention what happens if you don’t do this. That would give a reference point to the problem, wrapped up in the lecture(s). I suspect the same would be true of many of the common issue.

Hey Rob,

Been far too long.
This has actually migrated from its original conception so this can be closed i think now.
The idea has migrated to wikipedia updated by the students as a running list of commonly asked questions and solutions as the unity channel on discord was being flodded wit the same items.

With a wiki rather than a forum post a simple “Check the Wiki” pinned topic with the link will not reduce the questions but the amount of time and space they take to be answered :slight_smile:
Any further explaination need on the whys and what not woul be more targetted to the issue.

Apologies for the randomized post on this but sometimes i need to get it out of my head before i can formulate a solution and as it happened Johnny presented it in the form of wikipeadia :slight_smile:

It has and no worries, was just chiming in with some thoughts.

With regards to the wiki idea, the official wikis I fed back to @ben about only yesterday as it happens due to them now being somewhat out of date. It concerns me somewhat that having community driven wikis may be a solution, as I suspect what may happen is one topic is created with volumes of problems and some solutions (that may have only worked for that one individual), but you’ll end up having to trawl through loads of other content to find it.

Who will keep it up to date? Who will take out content that is no longer relevant when a course is updated to a newer version of Unity for example and the previous issue is just “gone”? I think what is likely to happen is the creation of one very messy wiki which invariably won’t be found because of the same issue where students don’t always tend to “look first and ask later”.

With individual topics, as per the suggest to Ben regarding the existing official wikis, you would be able to break the torrent of issues apart. But the underlying issue is going to be one of getting people to look in the right place, and for that you need a change of behaviour.

On a somewhat related note, wasn’t the original idea of having the Discord channel for getting “instant help”, for those who couldn’t wait for a response on the Q&A or wait a few minutes for someone to reply on the forum. Lol.

Indeed and i totally agree. Fortunately the persons that have voiced the ideas and implementing them are the ones that have been really helpful in the community in the past and more so on the discord :slight_smile:

I think i will work with the community on this and see how it goes from that respect then if it takes off and gets used then present it as an official support document.

Like you say though its when people move away and it goes out of date it can become an issue but i can always keep it updated as not much changes version to version and generally user errors repeat :slight_smile:

Where is this “One Wiki to rule them all” wiki going to live btw? You make it sound like it has already started etc.

Not sure at the moment but i have redirected those that are planning it to post here as well so it links up and your input as always would be invaluable :slight_smile:

I see.

Just so I understand this correctly though, it kinda goes like this;

  • student runs into a problem and needs an answer
  • student has been told they can get “instant” support via Discord
  • student visits Discord
  • student asks question, one of the ones that has been asked many times before
  • student gets redirected to a wiki, somewhere, to search for an answer to their problem

That feels like it’s lost the " get instant help" ring to it a bit and, in fact, just introduces more steps to the student actually getting help in the first place.

As a point of reference, there is one wiki on the forum that is used reasonably frequently, I had to go through it recently and update it because some of the links to resources were no long active/working. Few members of the community update it, few members of the community would know how to update it. This then circles back to having a small number of people being responsible for it, and when they disappear, it all falls down.

How will new community members know they can or are allowed to update such a resource?

If they can search through a website to find the wiki, and then through the wiki to find their answer, how come they could search through the forum in the first place to find topics posted by their peers who have experienced the same problem and found answer.

Hehe… Sounds like a case of just trying to move a problem to me. Sorry. There’s probably more to this than I am aware of, but from the outset I am not entirely convinced this is a sound plan for the long term.

Hmm i wonder if here the solution might be to have a locked channel on discord which only i can post in that way i can keep it updated.
We have moderators and i just appointed one more that addressed the issue as well so anything could feed back to me.
I also wonder on the subjects of things like.

What is a Serialize Field?

You give that to a newbie reading the unity docs and its not entirely clear that “Its a private type that appears in the inspector”

Keeping it to discord does mean however forums users miss out but its far easier to update and search the channel on discord.

the solution might be to […]

…and now you have a closed system that relies solely upon yourself, if you aren’t available, how do the others manage what has already been created? It could be that you are on holiday, unwell, or just otherwise busy, I am assuming in this context you plan to live forever obviously :wink:

My point being you have now taken away the ability of the students to add to it which was what you started off with with this plan. :slight_smile:

Keeping it to discord does mean however forums users miss out

Why? That would be like saying if it were on the forum then the Discord community would miss out. Both platforms are promoted by the team I believe, so students should be aware of both. Some may favour one over another but its not like they are competing with each other.

but its far easier to update and search the channel on discord.

How so?

“Its a private type that appears in the inspector”

Doesn’t have to be private to use that attribute :slight_smile:

Hello guys, passing by just to leave my humble opinion about this matter.

I’ve been very active in both this forum in the past two and a half years and in the discord since it started. Discord has been a good tool for networking, discuss ideas and get a fast feedback on a subject/problem, and the forum has been used to showcase solutions/works and to share a problem in order to look for some kind of guidance in order to solve it (not necessarily quickly, but effectively). Both serves their purpose quite well imho.

I think that the wiki is a good idea because it could serve as a place where we can explain something in the best possible way considering that most of the users are coming from the same place (GameDev.tv courses with little to no coding background), and if someone asks something that has already been addressed in the wiki, people can just point to the specific link in the wiki instead of writing the same thing over and over. People should also be able to navigate through the Wiki, but I believe that serving as a reference to a good explanation for the usual questions will be the main use for it. Probably most of the people that are answering the questions both in the Forum and in the Discord will know about the wiki (and will be likely the ones to update the Wiki, since it’s less work overall for them then it is to keep repeating the same thing) because they are basically the same people over and over helping others out, probably 80% of the doubts in both channels (discord and forum) are answered by less than 5% of the active users.

I’d even dare to say that some of us even saved an explanation about subject A or B because we are so used to receive these questions xD.

Examples of a few questions that could be addressed in the Wiki:

What the “new” keyword means?
The object is passing through another, why this happens?
Why Ben uses “public Text text” and then he changes the text using text.text?
What this “null” reference error means?
Why my pins are wobbling?
How to handle rotations? (usually a question that comes up during the Bowling master classes)
What “this” keyword means?
I want to learn Unity3d, Should I start with the 3d course or the 2d course?

But that is just my 2 cents, I’m sure there are problems to be considered and solved if a Wiki was ever to be created.

Hey Joao, good to see you.

You have highlighted another very real problem…

Why Ben uses “public Text text” and then he changes the text using text.text?

That’s gone. This section of the course has been replaced with an updated version by Rick.

My point being, those people that are giving the answers will also need to be fully aware of all the changes in modified course material, otherwise they can potentially be giving misinformation and just making the problem worse.

How may times will anyone realistically want to work through these intro sections again and again and again? 59 lectures of Bowl master sonwe can update the wiki anyone? Lol.

I would go as far as placing down a £5 bet right here, right now, that if this goes ahead it will be out of date really fast. Those that create it will, over time disappear, enthusiasm for maintaining it will dwindle, no guidance will be presented for what should go into it, no one will want to pick it up and sort it all out because by that point it will have grown into some really unweidly. At this point a decision will probably be made to cut it loose and start again, and history repeats.

The only way I can see something like this working, truly working, is of the GameDev.tv team took ownership of it and managed it themselves, as a piece of their work, and business. Being that there are already official wikis that were created and are out of date and haven’t been updated, with the exception of the recent lower casing of “tv” in their titles, I don’t see that the team would want to invest their time in it, or rather they may, but maybe they just don’t have the time to do it justice.

Terms like new and this, should, in my opinion be covered in the course material. this has been in the updated content, but primarily because of what appears to be an unfortunate choice of naming standards which then forced it to be, at least that’s how it looks.

In effect you already have all the questions and answers documented in a giant wiki, the forum, potentially two assuming all the previous posts on Discord are retained? What is lacking is the desire of those needing help to look for it, instead, the quick “Please help me” post appears, duplicating what has been asked before. There’s one of the root issues.

James recently put forward a suggestion for course content regarding covering debugging for students, this, combined with when they are really stuck where and how to get answers could go a long way.

An out of date and incorrect wiki post (or posts) is unlikely to truly help anyone in the long term and may itself become a source of frustration for those truly in need of support.

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Those are valid points, the idea of doing a Wiki came up trying to solve the problem of having repeated questions, perhaps other solutions could work better, would be nice if someone come up with more ideas of how to address that.

I’m not utterly against a wiki per-se, but I am being fairly realistic as to the likelihood of events.

I can’t help but feel that the “Goto Discord for instant help” thing has perhaps shot a few in the foot, with a demand now exceeding capacity, frustrations rising from the repetition of advice being given etc.

In order for any solution to work it would need some form of process, and one of the things I’ve always been fairly good at, in fact my previous employment relied upon it, was finding all the holes in said process. One of the difficulties you will have here is that this is, by all accounts, being community driven, e.g. there’s no guidance from the GameDev.tv team themselves on what they want, and that causes a problem because when you are not sure whether to do something, or not do something, or how to tackle it you’ll need to ask, and potentially wait a little while for a response, because again, this isn’t likely to be a high priority (in my opinion).

With regards to other solutions, I would suggest rolling the issue right back to its root, get some statistics, how many people are we actually talking about that don’t understand NullReferenceException error message for example, in which lecture/section does this occur the most, or, where does this issue first arise? Have the team been made aware of this? Have they been given information that demonstrates the size of the issue, or is it more of a “Yeah, a few people have been having this issue”, if it sounds casual, it’s probably not likely to be taken as a pressing issue. Where are these issues being logged? Who is logging them?

Also - what happens if you just don’t do anything? If you didn’t post that repetitive answer again for the 1000th time on Discord, what happens then? Does the student go off looking elsewhere and still struggles, do they managed to find out some information for themselves and resolve it? Are they ever directed back to the Q&A to get a response from the instructor team themselves?

There really are so many questions around this whole topic/process, the above are just a few that spring to mind without a great deal of thought/effort on my part, but it strikes me that jumping straight into a solution without fully investigating the problem is going to hurt in the long term. Who benefits from this solution the most right now? Is it the students? Or is it those that are frustrated posting the same information time and time again? Fairly certain if the student doesn’t get an answer on Discord, they’ll try somewhere else, and probably eventually find their way to the Q&A. If the Q&A gets overloaded and the workload for the student instructors gets too much that it is no longer easily managed then that itself should be a warning sign to the team, because at the moment, the more the community does under the guise of support the more the issue of problems with the course content may be hidden from view - until its too late/a huge problem.

Just thinking about the wiki idea itself… what was the plan? One topic, many headings? Like the official ones? Lets say that gets supported well and is updated regularly and has grown over the course of 12 months, its now pages and pages and page long… I’m a new student, I have got stuck, I end up asking on a question on Discord and get given a link to the wiki - “Have a look on the wiki, its covered there” comes the response… I follow the link to a page that is enormous… I scroll a bit, I scroll a bit more, I see lots of things being explained that I didn’t even know about yet, it looks very technical and complicated. There is a mixture of different writing styles, I spot a lot of typos, then there’s a code example which seems to be all over the place because someone hasn’t applied the code formatting correctly. I keep scrolling. This isn’t fun. I try the browser’s Find feature, I type in “Rigidbody” - it indicates there are 253 matches… I click “Next”…a lot…I give up.

Or, was there a different plan for the wiki?

At the end of the day, reducing the amount of support that is required by the team should be something that they are interested in doing, finding ways to monitor the problems should also be something that the team has an interest in, as mentioned this could be through reporting and feedback from student instructors but backed up with some data/evidence - this is all only of any use/point though if something will then change afterwards, e.g. changes the course material where appropriate.

For the moment, I think populating the forums with useful information is the way to go rather than creating yet another site to send people for answers, seperating both our community and our focus.

I have a Primer On Vector Math that I recently posted to the forums as kind of an experiment. While it remained in total obscurity here (not even having a good place to post it), it has been helpful as a source of cut-and-paste answers and go-here-for-more-info when answering people in the Q&A and Facebook.

If you do decide to go forward with the wiki idea, feel free to repost, copy, or modify anything in there for the wiki. But I think the best thing to do is just to post a link to it if anyone is having trouble somewhere and add on to it if you feel it’s missing something.

As far as topics in the Q&A, I’ve had to repost my “What exactly does [SerializeField] do?” and “How does [SerializeField] differ from FindObjectOfType” stock answers a couple times.

Some people seem to be having trouble with the early challenges, too.

Not so many questions on Scriptable objects as I would have expected. It looks like that stuff is covered very well. I know I learned a lot.

Hi Anthony,

I have a Primer On Vector Math that I recently posted to the forums as kind of an experiment. While it remained in total obscurity here (not even having a good place to post it),

I can see that you put a lot of time into this, it’s currently posted under Lounge, out of the current choices, the Programming category may have been more appropriate, as you do include a few code examples in your topic/replies. New categories can always be created if/when needed, but obviously for one topic this might not be suitable.

The use of code formatting in that topic/replies would have been useful too, it would have broken up the blocks of text and better formatted the examples being given. This is one of the concerns I raised above (in my wall of text replies) about having a wiki which is, by its nature, contributed to by the many, all who may contribute in different ways - Wikipedia, for example is, much more structured on it’s appearance and gives that more consistent look/feel which helps people to read/learn. It also looks as if there are some areas missing, e.g. it wasn’t completed(?), this would also be an issue for people contributing towards some form of wiki.

Some people seem to be having trouble with the early challenges, too.

Possibly because they are total new to it all, e.g. everything they are doing is for the first time.

I’ve had to repost my […]

Are you also a student instructor on the Q&A now too?

Not so many questions on Scriptable objects as I would have expected. It looks like that stuff is covered very well.

Possibly this is the key here, identifying the stuff that isn’t covered so well, so that it could be?

@Rob

Yeah dropped the ball on serialized field lol but tired:D
Forums can be read without signing up discord cant is what i meant so if its on the forums as a general rule it could be read by everyone but on discord it cant thats what i meant on that part.

And the discord channel was a run away idea that woudl require the use of the “helpers” that i was considering on the discord server but think it may be overkill. (helpers being a role that is given by mods like the leader role here)

Forums can be read without signing up discord cant is what i meant so if its on the forums as a general rule it could be read by everyone but on discord it cant thats what i meant on that part.

That is true. So, where has the student come from in this scenario, e.g to get to the wiki? Presumably not from the forum in the first instance, otherwise they would/could have found the wiki already before landing on Discord and asking their question. Presumably not from the Q&A otherwise, you’d like to think, that they would have asked their question there, as directed in each course at the very beginning. So, in this scenario, presumably from Discord. Had the user frequented the forum in the first place, instead of hitting the Discord channel for an answer, they could have searched against previously posted topics (as some do) to find an answer to their question - almost as if searching against an already written wiki…

Still feels like a behavioural change to me.

Here’s some irony for you… the second highest search term on the forum is “discord”…

The third is “Donkey”! (heavy sigh with regards to that topic).

“NullReferenceException” weighs in at the 64th most popular search term.

So what could we assume from those results?

  • people are typically unable to find the link to the Discord channel, despite it being linked from within the courses and on the GameDev.tv website
  • people are able to use the “search” feature on the forum, but are what, heading to Discord to ask their questions?
  • “NullReferenceException”, perhaps this isn’t such a big issue after all?
  • this place has a donkey issue…

What searches are performed on the Discord channel? What are the most frequent search terms?

With regards to the leader access level on Discourse, this would allow for much more and I would be worried if it was allocated freely;

  • edit all posts
  • pin/unpin topic
  • close topics
  • archive topics
  • make topics unlisted
  • Split and merge topics
  • Daily like limit increased by 3×

Where-as to edit a wiki, you only need to be a regular

Technically i dont have to give leaders any powers other than a tag that states they are a leader and displays them seperately from the online users like moderators are.
Its a role thats actually no different than the blender role for example except we just dont allow students to set it only moderators and above can or admin only :slight_smile:
Any powers as well can be limited to the channel as well so it can be restricted in that respect so leaders can only do what we allow them in which channel we allow them to do it :slight_smile:

It looks like a pattern is emerging in that people are as you say not finding discord easily in all courses and thats an issue.
I indicate where it is in the blender and RPG course when i greet them in the “Say hello” part although by the time they get to the RPG they are usually aware of discord by then!

It may be that having it in the greeting/announcements as most people dont fully read them as they are too eager to get on with the course.
The forums are linked in each lecture so maybe part of the issue is there that we are not promoting discord enough or in the right places. That to me would be the indication here that people want real time help but are having trouble locating the discord server to get it?

But back to the common issue which is essentially an FAQ really in whatever format it comes in but still the question remains.
What Format?
Who to keep it update?
And where to host it if wikipedia does not allow the control we like (Again not used it other than to view!)

One of the reasons i originally mention this is because of the

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