Request for Advice (On Gamedev Future)

[dkoko002]

Hi everyone! First of all, thank you so much to Gamedev.tv for inspiring new game developers. I count myself as one of them, as one of their courses is the whole reason I fell in love with this field. I am reaching out transparently and truthfully for anyone’s advice from a game development perspective, if they would be willing to offer it. The content of the request is a bit heavier than usual, and more vulnerable, and long-winded. I ask that you bear with me… lol It comes with a backstory too. XD (Sorry in advance)

As a not-so-short short backstory, I’m coming out of a difficult three-year long battle with my health and dealing with being medically retired from the military before even finishing training. I am about to essentially be paid to be permanently ill because of early military training gone wrong. It’s hard to say whether this is good or bad news? lol

Before that, the pandemic halted my life and barely budding career (I had just graduated with bachelors degrees in physics and aerospace engineering), during which time I had a good year to fall in love with game development (shout out to the Complete C# Unity Game Developer 3D course for starting that whole journey) until shipping for training to join the military. Sadly, this resulted in contracting a serious condition, and going through a difficult separation process from the military. For the 3 years in which I was struggling with this condition and the military, I poured myself into the game design for a massive game (in the space genre, like a combo of Mass Effect and Outer Wilds to give analogies)… By that, I mean story-writing, game design, and even some development when I could muster the energy during a really difficult time physically and mentally.

This game was admittedly an outlet for me during a difficult time, and, as with any writer, I attached the content of this game to my struggle and became highly committed to and invested in it. Hell, I even invested in quality assets for it (being pretty immobile leads to lots of time to explore the asset store lololol No regrets).

Because of how emotional this time of my life was, I am still very attached to this game idea, and I feel like the story reflects the state I was in… Now the problem is, of course, as many sources of indie game-developer advice paints clear as day, this is, by almost every technicality, an extremely unachievable game for an early game developer. It has all the scope and development-difficulty problems of an RPG and open world/universe game combined, not to mention a space/flight simulator (though my aerospace engineering and physics background might help with that… mmmmmaybe???).

Now, the purpose of this giant message is to ask this. In your opinion (which is far more experienced than mine lolol), is there an alternative to giving up on this game idea entirely, or halting work on it indefinitely to work on “more achievable” games, as every indie game development sacred law would indicate? It is my first game, done for no reason besides that I am passionate about and, since I’m being honest, emotionally attached to it…

If putting this game on the backburner really is the only logical choice, could I possibly design the game mechanics of this game through the design of smaller games? That way, I am still gaining experience designing smaller more achievable games, while simultaneously working towards the larger “magnum opus” of a game?

In the end, of course I would rather stay working on Revelation (that’s the game’s name), but I have reached a point of uncertainty that comes with experienced developers all saying in their advice-videos that indie devs are in over their heads, making big games like this…

Thank you for suffering through this stupidly massive message. XD I welcome your response, and am grateful for your time.

[beegeedee]

Hi David,
you needed a TL;DR with this one
Just kidding.
Don’t give up. Please don’t. (that’s my TL;DR )

I do like your idea of working on the mechanics by utilising the mechanics of your game in smaller titles. You should then release those, free or for a small free, and get feedback. This can be invaluable.

Time is the biggest investment in any project. You may have the time so you should keep at it but try mini projects. Don’t listen to those who say it is impossible to create massive indie games as their advice is subjective and truth be told, they probably have never tried.

At the end of the day, if you love what you do and you seem to have a passion for this, then that is far more important than anything else.

Take the creator of Stardew valley. It took him 7 years to reach the point of releasing the game and now 9 years on is still one of the best games I’ve ever played.

I’m also going to point you at another developer to look at, at your own leisure. If you’ve ever watched Black Mirror, specifically Bandersnatch, then you’ve seen this guy. Jeff Minter is one of these developers with genius and he’s an indie. He works with a second person these days. What he did about 7-8 years ago was a project called the Minotaur Project. It involved a series of games which had different game mechanics based around an small engine he created. They were all simple and he sold for 79c on the Apple Store and Android.

He still develops, he still releases the occasional game. Have a look: What is the Minotaur Project

I hope this helps in your thoughts. My advice is if you need advice, get onto the discord and interact with other students too. Also, make time to look at courses. They are actually a good way of sparking a moment of genius.

Good luck and I hope to see your game soon.

[Marc_Carlyon]

Hi David,

Just to chime in here on Brian’s great reply to your post i know where you are at and how you are feeling.
I have been at GameDev.tv for around 7 years now and at the birth of the company.
However i wanted to share with you my journey
I wasnt always here at GameDev.tv as i used to be an electrician and then an intruder alarm engineer but an injury to my ACL (Knee Ligament) meant that climbing ladders and crouching in cupboards was no longer an option for me and so i was unemployed for the longest time trying to find my footing again in a career.
During this time i was also diagnosed with a condition know world wide as Charcot Marie Tooth disease which affects the nerves controlling the muscles. I still didn’t get a resolution as they could not pin down the type despite the nerve conduction tests proving i had the disease and sent my blood tests to Oxford for study on a new variant.
As previously mentioned i started at GameDev.tv as a student myself and i was helping out in the Q&A as a student when the team realized they needed teaching assistants to help students whilst the instructors made the content. This progressed to where i am now as support leader looking after all our teaching assistants.

I realize this is detracting from game development directly but during my time i would review all courses and all mechanics as well as video editing which are all useful skills and i did so by smaller projects and other aspects here.

My point is here that don’t let your disability/condition hold you back as you can achieve your dream but sometimes it is a good idea to do what i am currently telling my 15 year old daughter to do with her exam studies, Take a break, Get outside of your own head and break things down into more manageable pieces as otherwise you will burn out and get overwhelmed by the size of the project you are working on.

I’m posting a link to my you tube channel which i haven’t uploaded to in a while as work keeps me fairly busy these days but it gives you an idea of how i moved around testing mechanics and working on other projects and then coming back to the larger project.

Once i get some time again (3 kids also takes up a huge chunk of my time with 2 on the autism spectrum) i may return to the bing bang ball project and rewrite it from scratch and clean up the features.
The main one that held me back was procedurally generating a city and having a navmesh generated at run time but unity itself has made it MUCH easier with a built in method to do this now.

Here’s the link

https://www.youtube.com/@jellydevtv/videos

My final notes are, Don’t give up, Do take breaks and do little projects with the mechanics you want in the larger game and apply them. Release the smaller wins and get feedback and take that on board with the larger project and improve on them.

Hope this helps

[Nina]

Hi David,

As it seems, it’s storytime.

In my personal opinion, the best games are those which not only provide unique ideas/approaches but also invites the players to be part of the creator(s)'s world. Stardew Valley is a great example. The creator did not make a Harvest Moon clone but extended the whole idea. I loved HM, and I always wanted more crops, a larger world, more stuff to discover, and so on. And the creator of Stardew Valley obviously had the same wish but, unlike I, he decided to make his own game to make his dreams come true.

There are lots of other games like Stardew Valley or Harvest Moon, and I played some of them but those games were not what I was looking for. It is difficult to describe what I am/was looking for because ‘I need more crops and more stuff to collect’ is just one aspect. And this is a problem only passion can solve because while you cannot explain it, you still know exactly what you want. I hope this makes sense?

Back in the 90s, when I was like 8 years old, I discovered BASIC, and I immediately had a ‘great idea’ for a little text based game. When people asked me what I was doing, I told them about the dollarAs and dollarBs into which I put words which I used in lines where I wrote ‘if’. I didn’t know the word ‘variable’ or ‘string’ or whatever, so I simply talked about BASIC and dollars (string variables in BASIC start with $). I was sooo intrigued by the magic of computers: writing dozens of lines of code just to make a few words appear on the screen.

People thought I was stupid and crazy because I sounded stupid and crazy. Nevertheless, I completed the little game, and it fulfilled its purpose, so I was satisfied. This is how I grew up. And this is probably the main reason why it is not easy to demotivate me because I’ve always believed in myself, and I create my personal projects to reach my personal goals. And my personal projects are usually about solving my personal problems like ‘I want X and cannot find X anywhere, so I make my own X’. From my experience, not many people understand what it means to be mentally and emotionally invested in something that does not become visible within less than 9 months.

Regarding ‘high ambitions’, if I have ‘big ideas for big projects’, I sometimes break them down to smaller ideas to explore them in smaller projects first. If I had your background in aerospace engineering and physics, and if I had your ideas, I would probably create a little space/flight simulator first. Or, if I were enrolled in GameDev.tv’s Unity 3D course, I would probably make my own version of the Project Boost game with loooots of awesome features and challenges normal people wouldn’t even think about but would find interesting if they learnt about them in my game.

Long story short, if you are truely passionate about your ideas, I don’t see any reason why you should give them up. In my opinion, it’s usually better to work on your own projects in your free time instead of, for example, watching TV. If you ‘need’ to complete something for some reason, maybe complete a simpler version of your game first: the core game containing the most important playable features. Then add more features.

I hope this helped a bit.

[BH67]

@dkoko002

In your opinion (which is far more experienced than mine lolol)

Well, that counts me out XD

I’m on the fence about whether I should even post to this, but since we always have the right to take what’s useful and leave the rest, I might as well just go for it. If it helps someone (even if it’s just me by writing thoughts out), then it’s not wasted effort.

@dkoko002

is there an alternative to giving up on this game idea entirely, or halting work on it indefinitely to work on “more achievable” games?

@dkoko002

could I possibly design the game mechanics of this game through the design of smaller games? That way, I am still gaining experience designing smaller more achievable games, while simultaneously working towards the larger “magnum opus” of a game

Question, Answer; Answer, Question. What a pleasant acquaintance =)

Pretty much exactly as beegeedee, Marc, and Nina have all indicated. You already know what you need to do; I think you maybe just wanted some validation on the idea, and there’s nothing wrong with that. In my opinion, this is absolutely the right way to go about it, and it’s the same thing I’m doing. This is also why I attack almost every Godot problem I see here like some kind of crazed linebacker - I’m learning a lot just by doing that! The fact that it actually helps people along the way is just a massive bonus.

@Nina

Or, if I were enrolled in GameDev.tv’s Unity 3D course, I would probably make my own version of the Project Boost game with loooots of awesome features and challenges normal people wouldn’t even think about but would fine interesting if they learnt about them in my game.

Did someone say Project Boost? XD

Post-Course: Project Rocket!

When starting this section, I immediately had two other interesting ideas and I couldn’t decide which of the 3 rockets to implement. In the end, I decided to start with Bram’s rocket, and then come back after the course to make the others as well! Feature List for anyone curious (there’s a lot here because I converted this from my objectives list):

Rockets:

3 rocket types, each with their own unique mechanics and 5-level campaign “Project” Rocket – almost exactly like Bram’s course rocket Bou…

Project extensions after learning something are always a good idea. The point of me putting this here is that you shouldn’t be afraid to post your projects either, as any feedback you get is invaluable. The entire difficulty system I built is the result of feedback saying that difficulty was an issue in my first game. Each part of the system could be adapted to other games in one way or another, and you’ll usually conclude the same thing about your own extensions.

Practice in every way you can, and bring everything relevant back into your dream project!

[dkoko002]

Thank you so much for your responses. And, Brian, you are completely right. I am guilty of not including a very needed TLDR (and I was about to be guilty again because I am no good at those).

uhhh… TLDR: Thank you all so much for offering your perspectives and telling your stories. They are so valuable and I am grateful for your openness. The lessons learned and theme here is “Don’t give up when you have the passion, take breaks so you don’t burn out by breaking things into manageable pieces, and open yourself to feedback and different approaches.” Lol I’ve got to write these down.

Truthfully, when I posted this, I was uncertain I would receive a response. I feel very blessed and lucky for this kind of support during an uncertain time. Truly, thank you all for responding. This particular post is for you all, since you came together like a focus group. Haha Truthfully, I am surprised in a good way, and insanely grateful.

@beegeedee

Don’t give up. Please don’t. (that’s my TL;DR )

@Marc_Carlyon

My final notes are, Don’t give up

@Nina

Long story short, if you are truely passionate about your ideas, I don’t see any reason why you should give them up.

Brian, Marc, Nina, BH67, thank you; I absolutely won’t give up now… and I am going to redefine my mistaken definition of what “give up” really means, as I think I’ve been too rigid with my definition. I really am passionate about this game, which might have also put me in an “all or nothing” mentality. Thank you for reinforcing my passion, while helping me ground my approach to it.

@beegeedee

Don’t listen to those who say it is impossible to create massive indie games as their advice is subjective and truth be told, they probably have never tried.

@Nina

From my experience, not many people understand what it means to be mentally and emotionally invested in something that does not become visible within less than 9 months.

Thank you for bringing me these perspectives… My own perspective is affected by myself being a relatively inexperienced developer hearing advice of others who have double to ten times the time I do in this gamedev world. It is important to recognize that their word isn’t law just because of their time… In that vein, Brian, you are completely right that a majority of the advice I have received saying “don’t even try this” are from developers (that I respect) that have made games whose scope was restricted purposefully by their model of what is and is not achievable for indie. And Nina, I completely relate to that experience; I’ve always been the one to hyperfocus on something and spend several times the amount of time on a project than others deemed “worthwhile,” simply because I was invested. But, because of that, I know I also need to be reminded that time is ”the biggest investment in any project,” as Brian mentioned.

@Marc_Carlyon

Take a break, Get outside of your own head and break things down into more manageable pieces as otherwise you will burn out and get overwhelmed by the size of the project you are working on.

Haha Marc, you have no idea (or perhaps you do more than most) how much I needed to hear this… I suppose, this is what was driving me to such uncertainty, not simply external advice saying what I was attempting was unachievable (which was always there).

@BH67

You already know what you need to do; I think you maybe just wanted some validation on the idea, and there’s nothing wrong with that

Haha BH67, you are totally calling me out here. I guess I didn’t trust it coming from my own brain, given my lack of experience. However, I was open to the possibility that it wasn’t a feasible approach. It’s great to meet another aspiring developer (whose perspective is absolutely valuable).

@beegeedee

I do like your idea of working on the mechanics by utilising the mechanics of your game in smaller titles.

@Marc_Carlyon

Do take breaks and do little projects with the mechanics you want in the larger game and apply them.

@Nina

Regarding ‘high ambitions’, if I have ‘big ideas for big projects’, I sometimes break them down to smaller ideas to explore them in smaller projects first.

@BH67

Practice in every way you can, and bring everything relevant back into your dream project!

Thank you all for giving feedback on this approach, which truthfully I was unsure about. Now, with your feedback, the several project-plan doesn’t feel so naive of an idea. It was kind of an experimental approach that would allow me to follow the “don’t go so big” advice, while still working on my project. And I guess I worried that if I didn’t ride this wave of determination to complete my massive project, I would lose sight of it… but working on other projects with the original main one in mind is not “giving up,” as my old understanding would have indicated…

Once again, thank you all so much.

[dkoko002]

Brian, thank you so much for your time and feedback. You both supported my passions and grounded me with advice and even examples (that I will absolutely look into… I had never actually heard of the Minotaur Project). As I said in the big post, I will absolutely not give up, and I will heed your advice and get into that discord again! I used to be involved with other students, and I guess I pulled back during the most recent life-challenges. Time to dive back in!

Also, I already have plenty of awesome Gamedev.tv courses on my docket for ASAP, along with way too many others. Haha I always come out of them feeling more competent and inspired, and wanting to learn more.

[dkoko002]

I am grateful for the resources you have offered (subscribed and everything haha). But I am even more grateful for you telling me your story, and offering advice from the perspective of someone who has faced physical/health battles, and faced the challenge of having to reshape your future as a result.

@Marc_Carlyon

My point is here that don’t let your disability/condition hold you back as you can achieve your dream

Marc, thank you, for being both an example of and a voice of support in this way… It turns out someone who would join the Marines is pretty bad at adapting to loss of the function they relied upon so much for their chosen career. You are a great example of the determination needed to move forward in spite of that. Thank you.

Furthermore, how you described your acquisition of skills that are relevant for game development but not often talked about (video editing and mechanics and course reviews) was helpful in expanding my understanding of gaining experience. Also, I have always been leary of asking for feedback before I think something is “perfect,” but then that kind of prevents feedback from being possible, huh? XD I will absolutely divert attention into release and getting feedback.

Haha And yes, I will begin taking breaks to avoid that burnout monster that comes for us all. Thank you again, for the reminder.

[dkoko002]

Nina, thank you so much for sharing your story, and boldly saying your perspective. I honestly have not related to someone as much as I do right now when it comes to sharing that ‘I want X and cannot find X anywhere, so I make my own X’ mentality. XD People have often thought I was stupid or crazy too when it came to my reasoning of why I was doing what I was doing. I was always that hyperfocused kid who couldn’t be ripped away from what he was doing. The difference is, I haven’t always believed in myself enough to not be shut down when I was doubted. I hope I can come to learn that lesson as you have.

I hope that the passion I have for my project is enough to bring that same satisfaction that Stardew valley managed to deliver because of its own developer’s passion. For me, rather than ‘I need more crops and more stuff to collect,’ it is ‘I want bigger mysteries to uncover piece by piece in the vastness of space.’ Ohhhh gosh I hope my passion is enough. Haha

Thank you again, for being open and offering your advice and time.

[dkoko002]

Your feedback and perspective is absolutely not wasted effort! Thank you for taking the time to offer it!

Also, way to call me out. XD To be fair, I was absolutely willing to be wrong about my approach here. What do I know, right? XD I also relate to attacking problems with some truly fanatic zeal, but I am always open to someone popping around the corner and being like “uh… yeah here is a 2 second solution you were missing…” After a deep sigh of exasperation, I’d succumb to humility. XD

As for posting projects, it has been a while since I felt bold enough to do so, but it has been to my detriment, not sharing in order to receive feedback. I will start that up again, like Marc also recommended.

As for project extensions, I completely agree! I did the same thing with the rail shooter (more in the direction of dialogue and story-immersion… so embarrassing nowadays but I’ll share anyway haha).

https://community.gamedev.tv/t/star-trek-assault-with-voice-over/147787?u=dkoko002

I suppose I just haven’t taken the time to do another project that would allow me that same opportunity. More of a reason to work on more projects in bite sized pieces I suppose (P.S. I really liked your approach and extension on project boost!)

Thank you again, for sharing, and giving your feedback!

[Nina]

@dkoko002

I have received saying “don’t even try this” are from developers (that I respect) that have made games whose scope was restricted purposefully by their model of what is and is not achievable for indie.

If an experienced programmer (or somebody who claims to be experienced) tells you something like ‘do not try this’ or ‘this does not work’, always try to understand their reasoning because, sometimes, their only argument is something like ‘I’ve never tried it or I failed, so it cannot be done by somebody else either’. I have more than one example where people told me ‘this does not work’, and I made those things work just because I wanted them to work. If your logic flow works on paper, you can almost always make it work on a modern computer.

The same goes for larger projects. If your plan makes sense on paper, you will very likely be able to realise the project. If your outline tells you that you would need 1000 years to complete your project, you’ll have to compromise because you probably won’t live for 1000 years.

I’ve always been the one to hyperfocus on something and spend several times the amount of time on a project than others deemed “worthwhile,” simply because I was invested.

And that’s exactly the reason why I am usually able to make the things work I want to see work in my projects. If you have a logic flow in mind, the rest is more or less about doing extended research until you found the things you need to realise the logic flow (or you adjust the logic flow to the rules of a system). You wouldn’t believe how many people shouted at me, called me a cheater or a liar just because they couldn’t believe that somebody who didn’t have the relevant knowledge/skills before ‘suddenly’ became an ‘expert’ in a specific problem. Well, I just tend to spend a loooot of time being hyperfocussed on a specific problem, so the result shouldn’t surprise anybody. Actually.

I hope I can come to learn that lesson as you have.

I think it will come automatically when you see your achievements, and if you don’t define yourself through your work. When people criticise my stuff, I regard it as an opportunity to check, learn and improve things if possible, so negative feedback rarely hurts, and almost never discourages me. Also, an achievement is not an opinion but a fact, so people’s opinion won’t change that. Your achievements are proof of your skills. What you learnt will forever be yours, and nobody will ever be able to undo that (unless they commit a crime). If you believe in your skills without believing that you reached perfection, there is no reason to stop believing in yourself because you can always improve. Believing in the fact that I am always able to improve is a great motivator for me.

[dkoko002]

@Nina

their only argument is something like ‘I’ve never tried it or I failed, so it cannot be done by somebody else either’.

I actually remember the creator of an asset I am currently integrating telling me, right off the bat of me explaining the idea of my game, that it is too big for indie to handle, or too expensive, or too time-intensive… or someone else is already doing it or has already done it but “better.” They brought up Star Citizen immediately… This was years ago, when I barely had my feet on the ground with this game… Thankfully, I was already stubborn and hyper-focused, so I ignored him. XD At the time, I thought I was really taking a risk ignoring him… Now, having closed the knowledge gap between us, and seeing how he works, I don’t feel so intimidated.

@Nina

If your logic flow works on paper, you can almost always make it work on a modern computer.

@Nina

You wouldn’t believe how many people shouted at me, called me a cheater or a liar just because they couldn’t believe that somebody who didn’t have the relevant knowledge/skills before ‘suddenly’ became an ‘expert’ in a specific problem.

Wow, shouted at you? And I thought I had contentious conversations over this project… lol
Creating the logic flow is something that I am lucky to be capable of, due to my background and my brain being very structured in how it makes sense of the world… The problem is the knowledgebase required to achieve the logic flow. Hyperfocusing and becoming a subject-matter expert quickly is an indie-necessity, I’ve learned. XD I spend 90% of my time learning, 10% implementing what I have learned. Haha The problem I face is being overwhelmed by the amount. It’s like taking down one ship, and behind it is an armada… And there is no way to tell how hard it will be or how long it will take to sink each ship… That can be dangerous, but only confronted with “oh well, I’m doing it anyway.” XD

@Nina

When people criticise my stuff, I regard it as an opportunity to check, learn and improve things if possible, so negative feedback rarely hurts, and almost never discourages me.

@Nina

If you believe in your skills without believing that you reached perfection, there is no reason to stop believing in yourself because you can always improve. Believing in the fact that I am always able to improve is a great motivator for me.

Thank you for this advice, and perspective. I will say, I believe I am getting to the point where this is an achievable mindset. This conversation has undoubtedly helped. Thank you.

[Nina]

@dkoko002

Wow, shouted at you? And I thought I had contentious conversations over this project…

It wouldn’t surprise me if you completed your game idea, and the asset creator started to shout at you because you dared not to meet his low expectations of you.